Sam Menning – Bettie Page, Bondage, and XXX loops: Part 1, The East Coast Years

Sam Menning may just be the most interesting historical figure of the entire golden age of adult film.

Let me explain.

If you were to summarize the history of the adult industry, you may start in the early 1950s in New York with its black and white cheesecake pin-up photography that soon developed into fetish S&M magazines that created stars like Bettie Page.

Then you’d progress to the early 1960s sexploitation films, with their jazz soundtracks, Manhattan streetscapes, and middle aged men with young mistresses. Which in turn gave way to soundless hardcore sex loops shot on 8mm in seedy apartments and sold under the counter out of Times Square bookstores.

In the 1970s, the center of production slowly moved westwards to California with hardcore feature films flooding theaters across the country, before being eventually replaced by the XXX video revolution in the 1980s.

Each era brought a different cast of characters, but one person was ever-present: Sam Menning.

Sam was involved in every one of these adult chapters, a Zelig character who kept reappearing at every juncture, sometimes in the forefront, sometimes in the background, but always involved with the key developments of the industry.

The Rialto Report met and interviewed Sam on several occasions, often filming the conversations (we’ve included clips of these interviews below).

Our interactions were characterized by Sam drinking apple brandy generously throughout each session – and thus becoming more loquacious, not to mention outrageous, as we proceeded. (When we once told him we’d be over at his house by 6pm, his reply was, “You can come whenever you want, but I start drinking at 4.”)

The span of Sam’s life was remarkable and his memory (when he hadn’t drunk too much) remained intact. Indeed he still had the same still camera which he used to shoot Bettie Page, as well as the same movie camera with which he used to shoot sex loops featuring Linda Lovelace, Jamie Gillis, et al.

Whenever we spoke to him, he was invariably in a reflective mood, looking back at his achievements with a wistful sadness and nostalgia. Not that his life had turned out unsuccessfully: after he retired from adult entertainment in the 1990s, he enjoyed a late career renaissance as an actor in mainstream Hollywood, appearing in scores of hit shows that included ‘Gilmore Girls’ and ‘My Name Is Earl’.

This is the first part of the Sam Menning interview. The New York Years.

With thanks to fethistory.

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1.     Background (1925-1947)

Where did your life start?

I’m from Los Angeles, born in 1925. When I was about 10 years old, we moved to Oregon and so when the war came along, I was a teenager living in Portland.

I found a newspaper article from an Oregon newspaper where you are listed as selling a cow!

I remember that. I was about 14. She was beautiful. I was sad to see her go.

What was teenage life like for you?

I was restless, adventurous, and I wanted to get the hell of out of there and see the world.

I was too sheltered. The first time I got laid I was 14 years old and she was 23! She was breaking the law, but I would’ve hated to see her locked up for that. She was one hell of a great woman!

So I guess you didn’t stick around for school?

Nope. I went into the marine industry when I was 16 years old. I became captain of three ships.

What was your experience at sea like?

I was 16 years old in 1941 and I was a stowaway on a boat. I spent Christmas Eve in a lifeboat on the Absaroka when it was torpedoed. It wasn’t even torpedoed by the Germans (grumbles). I got torpedoed by the second raters, the Japanese, that’s who torpedoed me! The attack was off Point Fermin, California, and we were beached off Fort MacArthur.

Were you on a warship?

No! It was an American merchant ship, and that attack started the Battle of Los Angeles. It lasted through February 1942.

Were you injured?

No, all the wounds I had they came from the Germans a few years later. That was from the bombing in the Mediterranean when I was on a ship off Italy.

How did you become a captain of a ship?

That was after the war. The first ship I was captain of was in 1947. I was still too young to be a captain but it was a Panamanian ship so they thought, “Fuck it, his age doesn’t matter.” That was the ‘Minnerparn’(?). I really got screwed on that ‘cos they didn’t pay me when they went bankrupt. After that, I was the captain of a ship called the ‘Cape Romain’, and then I was captain of a ship called the ‘Golden Oak’.

Did you enjoy being at sea?

No, I just wanted to see the world and get laid. I knew I wouldn’t do it forever but it was complete freedom for a time. And I got laid all over the world [giggles].

*

2.     New York – Photography (1947-1968)

Where did you envisage going when your sea career ended?

Well… in between jobs being a ship’s captain, I’d usually hang around in New York.

New York was different in those days. Everybody was complaining ‘cos the subway went up to 15 cents, you know it used to be a nickel! And the subways, they weren’t like the way they are today – there wasn’t graffiti and stuff.

And what did you want to do for a living?

I took up photography.

How did that come about?

I met Weegee. You know about Weegee?

Sure. The New York crime photographer. How did you come across him?

After the war, when I started spending time in New York, Weegee had a book of his photographs out. ‘Naked City’ (1945).

He was about 30 years older than me, a strange, small guy from eastern-Europe-someplace with a weird accent. His deal was that he had a knack of getting to crime scenes before the cops arrived… and he’d take pictures of the victims, which he’d sell to the tabloids. They loved that shit.

I met him and told him I wanted to shoot women. Naked ones.

Weegee (1950)

Was Weegee helpful to you?

Sure. This was the late 1940s, maybe the early 1950s, Weegee was starting to spend more time in Hollywood so he gave me all his contacts. And when he was in town, he taught me a lot.

Did Weegee know much about the nude picture market?

He knew about it all. He shot the crime pictures to make a living, but he had a kink and liked to shoot women whenever he could. Later in his life, he went to Europe to shoot nudes with that English guy…

Harrison Marks?

Yes, that’s him.

Well, when I first met Weegee, he got me onto an agent so I could make money taking pictures, and I started shooting girlie stuff straight away.

Tell me about how you would shoot the photographs.

I would shoot anywhere. I didn’t think nothing of carrying my camera equipment and walking up the stairs, four or five flights to my apartment, bruising my knuckles. I used to shoot those things on a 45” camera.

Sometimes I’d shoot in people’s apartments – or in mine. But I only did that if I got desperate… because my place was a mess.

Sam taking nudie photographs in Watch the Birdie (1965)

And what would be the output that you would sell?

Those were the days when we sold the little picture sets… did you ever see those things? There were twelve 4 x 5s for the strip sets. $4 for the set. Then I started putting out a series of little magazines, little books, that I published myself.

How did you know what to shoot?

[Looks thoughtful for a long time] I have always been a little savvy about the things that are going to make me a little money, and so I started making friends with the guys in all the bookstores. I wanted to figure out, ‘What are the customers looking for?’ I always filled a void.

Sam, in a magazine article from his early career

What did you notice in the bookstores?

I saw that you could make more money doing the fetish pictures. Which I preferred anyway because that’s kinda what I liked (cackles). That’s why all of a sudden, I did a lot of spanking books. Because that was what was in demand! Then, everybody else came out doing the same thing… and then there were too many!

After the spanking came the wrestling, and then all the other various fetishes. Whatever the customer wanted.

And the fetish pictures sold for more?

Sure! 40c each picture compared to 15c for an underwear shot.

How would you sell your pictures?

I used to sell stuff to the guys who owned the bookstores… and those were a bunch of characters. There was Eddie Mishkin – we used to call him ‘The Mish.’ Then there was Louis Finkelstein – he used to be ‘Louis the Fink.’ There was ‘The Walrus’ and ‘Glass Eyed Benny’ – he didn’t have a glass eye, he just had an eye that didn’t focus right. Then there was ‘Subway Pete’ – that was Pete Vicaro. All these guys worked down on 8th Avenue around Times Square. They really needed pictures to sell so I made good money.

You know, there were 14 adult bookstores in New York. That was half the bookstores in the country! There were a few in San Francisco, one in Baltimore, and one somewhere up in Montana… and that was all. So that was our audience.

Sam, taking spanking photographs, in ‘Watch the Birdie’ (1965)

And then you met Lenny Burtman.

He was running Burmel Publishing with Ben Himmel – and they specialized in fetish photo books. One of the bookstore owners connected us. I went into his store because one of my magazines was there and I talked to the owner – and he told me about Lenny.

So I met Lenny and started shooting for him, and we became tight for 30, 40 years. His wife was a hot tamale, let me tell you. Tana Louise. A stripper, model, dancer. Scary woman; she could slay you with a glare.

The thing about Lenny was that he was secret.

Secret?

He didn’t liked to be photographed, he never wanted to be seen or associated with his work, and he preferred to stay in the shadows. He was like that his whole life. I got to know him though. He had secrets about his sex life.

Tana Louise, aka Mrs. Lenny Burtman

What in particular?

He… [hesitates] liked women to be aggressive with him. And he dug transvestites (laughs). And transsexuals… In those days… with those interests… he had to have a double life.

Rare sighting of Lenny Burtman (aka ‘Leonard M. Burton’), from Satan in High Heels (1962)

How did your arrangement with Lenny work?

At the beginning… and we’re talking about the 1950s… he would call me up, and tell me to get over to his place. I’d shoot broads in his apartment. Which was a real nice place, much better than mine. He’d gave me cash each time and he’d pay the chick too, so I had no risk.

What models do you remember working with?

Tana Louise. Judy O’Day.

Of course, I was very good friends with Bettie Page. Weegee turned me onto her. He loved her, did photos with her, and was always trying it on with her, but she wasn’t interested. She hit him with a brick once when he took his clothes off to photograph her (laughs).

I shot a lot of things with Bettie, and I went out with her.

Bettie Page, shot by Sam

When you say you went out with her, do you mean dated?

No one slept with Bettie. She was distant like that. She wouldn’t touch any of us. And she didn’t drink either. But I took her out to the automat and the theater.

How do you remember her?

Beautiful gal. She was my age. Maybe a year or two older. She was always professional and serious, but a great model. She had no modesty and would do anything for the camera. She knew how to turn me on. She knew how to turn any man on. I worked with her often, and we did lots of bondage shots. I always loved working with her. It was easy.

She eventually disappeared from the scene overnight. Did you ever speak to her after she stopped modeling in 1957?

Just once, about a five-minute conversation. She said, “I don’t want to see anybody. I just want everybody to remember me as I was.” She didn’t want to talk to anyone.

Selection of photographs of Bettie Page, taken by Sam

How would you describe the elements of your photographic style?

(Thinks hard) I mean… I liked taking rough and dirty pictures. Some said they were seedy. I like strong, desperate women. Fiery, angry eyes (giggles). That’s why Burtman liked me, I guess.

I was used to the hookers in the ports around the world when the ship docked. That was the world I knew. Fights and sex. I guess that’s my style.

So no nudist camp volleyball pictures for you?

Pah! They were bullshit.

What about the camera clubs – did you have much to do with those?

I had a few that made me money. We could charge lonely, horny men a few bucks to come and take pictures of our models. Cass Carr was a Jamaican band leader who had his Concord Camera Circle club near my office, so I’d give models to him.

Were you ever worried about the legality of the pictures you were taking?

Not when I worked for Lenny Burtman. He was the publisher so he had all the risk. No one would come after a simple shooter like me (laughs). He was the big fish, not me.

Do you remember any of the bookstores being busted?

They used to bust them every couple of weeks – and those were the days when the old Comstock laws were still alive. But at first, they were never getting any convictions. These store owners would just plead guilty, and pay the fine. I remember one bookstore guy on 42nd Street saying to a cop, ‘We beat you every time’. But the cop said, ‘The city can afford the lawyer’s fees much more than you can, so we’ll run you out of business eventually.’

And they did. They started to close the stores down. Now don’t get me wrong: I don’t believe that a bookstore near a school should have pornographic pictures in the window or stuff like that. I believe that we gotta respect those religious right people, but… [pointing vigorously] they’ve gotta respect us too!

There was one thing they always had in the adult bookstores… some religious books and a Bible! And when they got busted and got on TV, the cops would take the Bible with all the sex books. So when you went to court, the store owners would make a song and dance about how they lost their Bible (laughs) and were desperate to get it back… together with everything else, of course.

[Looks nostalgically and shakes his head] It’s changed a lot now, I’ll tell ya…

How about the distributors: do you remember them being pursued?

Well, there was Senator Kefauver who went after Irving Klaw in 1955. But the irony was that Klaw’s pictures were tame compared to mine.

Burtman was busted all the time but he rolled with the punches.

I helped him sometimes move his product around the city. And by product, I mean thousands and thousands of girlie books. Nude pictures, S&M, nothing more than that. I knew where all his secret storage areas were, but I wasn’t ‘involved-involved’ in his distribution.

He had a big garage up on 108th St that got busted in the late ‘50s, and they connected it to him so they arrested him for that. That was bad news [shakes his head].

Were you ever arrested?

Sometimes the cops had an informant or two and they would point the finger at me, so they’d come to my apartment and ask questions. But I never kept much material at my apartment so they lost interest.

We always wondered who the informants were. Lenny wondered if it was Bettie (laughs).

FBI documents showing Bettie Page revealing information to law enforcement

You seemed to be unique in that you were friendly with the businessmen who ran the businesses, as well as the store managers, and the models too.

I kinda get along with everyone. I treated everyone the same.

I had a thing with Judy O’Day, and I was close to a model named Jackie Miller. Man, she was a firecracker. We spent a lot of time together. Drinking, shooting, dressing up, undressing, doing crazy things together.

Jackie Miller, photographed by Sam

What else did you do apart from the photography?

Oh, I was always busy doing something. For a time, I knew all the models so well, I got them stripping jobs all over town. I became their manager.

How did that work?

I started by going into bars – some of the small ones – on the west side, and I’d say to the owner: “You need an attraction. I have some dancers that will spark this dump up.” Then I’d negotiate some money for the girl. And I’d take my cut.

Pretty soon, I was getting calls for strippers from all over town. No problem. I got ‘em!

What establishments contacted you?

The whole range. From the Latin Quarter down to a dive bar in Queens. For example, I got a dancing job for Jackie (Miller) at the Latin Quarter.

Next problem was finding something sexy for them to wear. It wasn’t easy to find sexy clothes for them. So I made it for them.

Was that when you launched ‘Cover Girl Originals’?

Yes. That was my company.

What did you sell?

Underwear, swimwear, stripper’s costumes, negligees, panties, stockings, bras, pasties, tassels, you name it… I had everything.

I came across your catalog.

I started the company to dress the girls who worked for me, but the mail order side made me a little money too.

And the catalog featured the same girls I was shooting for the fetish picture sets!

Where did you get the product?

I designed it myself. I knew what men wanted to see, and I knew women’s bodies. I was good at designing bras and bikinis. Then I had some women in the garment district make it.

Sam Menning

So you were busy: you took fetish photos of models… who you would represent in the stripping world… and you would make sexy clothes for them to dance in… and they would also feature in your mail order catalog… and you continued working as a photographer for Lenny?

Yes, you had to stay busy in those days just to survive.

The 1960s came, and I kept taking photo sets for Lenny’s business. He paid well, and I never had a problem doing the pictures for him. He published hundreds of fetish magazines, like Exotique (that may have been his first), Unique World, Bizarre Life, Corporal, and High Heels.

I got to know his new wife Jutka. Crazy Hungarian model. I think she was Miss Hungary at one point. I shot lots of photos with her too. Tiny, bossy woman (laughs). She loved being a dominatrix so I’d dress her up in leather and boots.

Jutka Burtman

Tell me about the models you used in the 1960s.

Well, one of my favorites was a dark-haired girl named Linda Boyce. She was a dancer who did movies too. I had a guy named Hal Stone who was always giving me girls to shoot. He was an agent for the girls. Or a pimp, whichever way you want to look at it. Agents and managers are all pimps, whatever they tell you.

Then Linda and Hal went into business to represent these girls. ‘Boyce Stone’ was the name of their business. That was a pain in the ass. It didn’t last long.

I took pictures all the time. Sometimes it was for regular businesses who wanted commercial shots, but mostly it was for the sex business.

Linda Boyce (right), with Ute Erickson, in photograph take by Sam Menning

Sam (on the floor) in Rent-a-Girl (1965)

One person you photographed was Shere Hite, who later became a famous writer, sex-researcher and author of ‘The Hite Report: A Nationwide Study on Female Sexuality.’

I recall her vaguely. Serious, arty woman. Cold. Distant. She wasn’t famous when I shot her. Probably a lesbian.

Shere Hite, photographed by Sam

Where was your office?

I was at 776 8th Avenue, and Lenny was around the corner at 247 West 46th St.

And all your work was in New York?

Lenny sent me down to Florida to shoot a few times. That’s how I met Linda Lovelace. This is before she was famous, when she was just plain Linda Boreham. She was living with Chuck Traynor over a biker’s bar in Miami. I hung out in the bar a few times, and let me tell you… that was a wild place. The waitresses danced on the table without clothes. They would lock the doors and the waitresses had sex on the bar.

I became friends with Chuck and Linda. Took a few pictures of her having sex too.

Linda Lovelace, Florida 1971

Linda Boreham (Linda Lovelace) model release (1970)

What would you shoot for Lenny in Florida?

S&M pictures. I became friends with a pornographer, Lenny Camp. We shot a lot of stuff together. He’d set it up and get the girls, and I’d shoot it. Trouble was, Lenny was being watched by the Feds.

Did that attract attention to you?

Hell, yeah. There was an FBI agent with a bug up his ass. Bill Kelly was his name. He connected me to Camp, so he busted me for pornography in Dade County, FL, and they confiscated all my camera equipment. I wasn’t even shooting pornography – I was shooting S&M for Lenny Burtman, that is. But I was shooting it with Lenny Camp. Too many Lennys.

What happened to the legal case?

It dragged on and on, and I had to go back to court in Florida each time. I didn’t have the money to keep flying down there so I had to shoot pornography down in Florida and to pay for my non-pornography case and get back my equipment!

*

3.     New York: Loops (1969 – 1972)

How aware were you of the sex film business in New York?

Not too much. There wasn’t much cross over between the guys who wanted to make porno features and what I was trying to do. They wanted to become Steven Spielberger [sic] or whatever, and I was just trying to make a buck.

But you had small roles in a few films of the time.

(Surprised) I did?!

You often played the role of a photographer. I remember first seeing you, very briefly, in ‘Satan in High Heels’ (1962), for example. It was a Lenny Burtman production, when he used the name, ‘Larry M. Burton.’

Was it any good?

Sam (right) in ‘Satan in High Heels’ (1962)

It was reviewed in the New York Times, albeit unfavorably. Something like, “No one is likely to be corrupted by this tepid film.” Lenny ran some photo-features promoting it in a few of his magazines.

I was more interested in the short fetish 8mm films. Like home movies, except with bondage and maybe a whip. I made a few of those and sold them to the book stores. They sold them under the counter in a brown paper bag.

Then one day in the 1960s, I went into a Times Square bookstore and saw loop machines for the first time.

Man, was that a game changer…

Tell me about what you saw.

These machines cost you a dollar to see the whole short film. For a quarter, you got the first few minutes and then you had to put more money in to see the rest.

If a guy went to one machine and he didn’t like the people in the film, well… he went to the next machine. He might not get the beginning of the picture – he might be at the halfway mark or the three-quarter mark – but he wanted to go back and see what she looked like when she was taking her panties off so he he’d play the whole thing through again from the beginning.

Were these explicit sex loops?

Not at first. They were just girls stripping.

I asked the book store owner where the films came from, and he said there was a guy in California, in San Francisco, who shot them.

And so you decided to make loops yourself.

I said, “They’re all just regular 8mm things that run 15 minutes. I can make better ones.”

I was just filling the void again. And I shot them with real sex. Dirty sex, like it should be (giggles.)

How did you shoot them?

I used an old Bolex camera. It was a wind-up but I had the electric wheel put on. You shoot one roll, then you stop to re-load, and then shoot the next roll, and then the next roll.

Sam describes how to load the camera he used for loops

Tell me about the scenarios you used in the loops.

Sometimes there were stories, sometimes there weren’t. You know, sometimes the guy comes with a pizza and the girl doesn’t have any money and he says, “Oh, you gotta pay me,” and she shows him her butt. Then they get down to being nude… they start playing around… and in the last one, that’s when the old pop shot came. There was no sound but you could understand the story pretty good.

Sometimes I had costume stuff – like a peasant girl, then a grenadier comes through, you know, a guy in uniform, and he sees her and he gives her a pat on the ass and raises her shirt, and then it went from there. Or he’s a guy and he’s got a woman plumber and she’s got no panties on and she’s up there… and he looks down there… and he starts playing around and then it’s into the bedroom… bang, bang bang!

So I gave them a little story, a little pizzazz. I had a lot of costumes, but a lot of time it was just a pizza guy.

How long did it take you to shoot a loop?

I would shoot a whole bunch in a day.

I didn’t like it when I had to do a shoot fast. Every once in a while, I shot something where I could take my time and I’d put some lights up and use a tripod, but mostly I just held the camera and moved around.

I used to have a thing called ‘Nickel Day’. Well, ‘Nickel Day’ was a free-for-all. I invited lots of people over to shoot, and whoever showed up got $5 an hour for being there whether we used them or not, and I had plenty of beer.

[Looks nostalgic] Now that I think of it, we did a lot of fuckin’ around ourselves. I kinda miss those old days when there was plenty of boom boom boom for me all the time [sighs].

Sam describes shooting loops

And you shot regularly?

All the time. In those days, we just shot anything that I could sell. I’d just shoot it, shoot it, shoot it – and then I’d sell it.

It was just four minutes per roll because they were 100-foot rolls. I’d sell a loop for about 250 bucks. And I paid the people about $50 each – or less – and then there was the cost of the film….

Who did you sell it to?

First, I used to take it to a guy out in Astoria, Queens and he did the processing. He’d put up money to get me extra copies, and I told him the way that they should be edited – but we didn’t edit these things much, I used to do what they called camera-editing.

Then I’d sell the loops to the places on the street and make me some profit.

And you got paid in cash?

Of course. I didn’t want the Revenue guys talking a cut of my hard work!

The only unusual thing was that after a while this bookstore guy said to me, “If you want the money, you gotta take the money the way we get it…” Which meant they started to pay me in quarters from the peep machines. So I’d get a suitcase of quarters!

One time, I got onto the bus and the suitcase broke open. Now, New Yorkers are notorious for taking advantage of things so I scrambled around trying to collect all the coins. But these people helped me pick it up and put it back in my suitcase [giggles]. I had about… [looks thoughtful as if calculating] $800 in quarters in that bag that day. The funny thing is that I was only about $20 short when I finally counted my money (laughs).

Did loops make you much money?

Oh, yes. This got to be a lucrative business… so some of the connected people started moving in.

There was Bruce Balaban. Bruce’s real name was Luigi but he spent about seven or eight years in prison in Brewster – so that’s where he got the name ‘Bruce’. He was always leaning on people like me.

What was the consequence of the mob involvement for you?

I had to look over my shoulder all the time (grumbles). If I made too much money, I knew there’d be a knock on my door. They knew where to find me (laughs). They’d say, “We like to help you protect your business.” I told them I wasn’t making any money, but they could see what I was selling to the bookstores! It was difficult to avoid them. I could outsmart them though: they were dumb sons-of-bitches. They dressed well, though.

And this was before the time when you had to shoot a picture for the box cover of the loop?

Oh, we didn’t have pictures on these loops. Those loops didn’t have pictures!

What do you remember about the talent you used?

I started a lot of people in the business. Of course, there was no such thing as ‘the business’ then, it was just a few young people looking for money by screwing on camera.

Linda [Sanderson, who later became better known as Tina Russell] filmed her first ever loop with me. [Drinks some more] She wasn’t worried about screwing on film – but she was worried about not doing it right. Linda worked at a place called Clark Fashions over in the Garment district and her old man, John [better known as Jason Russell] was driving a cab. They became close to me.

I remember they turned me on to a strange couple once who fucked like bunnies. Later, I found out they were a brother and sister… oh man! So I to kill everything I had on them, you know, ‘cos the laws, they’re looking out for anything they can get you on – and man, all that incest shit… that was bad news!

Magazine with Tina and Jason Russell photographs taken by Sam

What was Linda/Tina like?

Tina was good in bed [giggles] and she was a real sweetheart… [becomes thoughtful, drinks from glass] … nice little figure, such a beautiful girl … wonderful person to talk to. [becomes wistful]

But the one thing was, if you were gonna go to bed with Tina, if she’s eating something with garlic in, you’d better eat the same because she could just take one bite of a sandwich with garlic in it and… [becomes thoughtful again] yeah… yeah…

In Linda/Tina’s book, ‘Porno Star,’ she talks about taking Mescaline with you.

It wasn’t Mescaline – that was Sunshine… Oh boy, that was a heavy trip. That was the time that my telephone kept changing colors. Come to think of it, I’d been on mescaline AND sunshine. I’d already had a few trips on sunshine, they were fine – then I had that one and… man, I couldn’t breathe. So that’s the time I figured to leave the ol’ LSD alone…

Tina and Jason Russell photographs taken by Sam

Drugs weren’t a big thing for you? It was the 1960s, after all…

Well, I liked Pocomimies… amyl nitrate… If you got a big day ahead, you got a hangover, and you’re in the morning… you need to take a little speed to get ahead, you know?

Now that I think back, I used to like the nights, when you had no air conditioning, and when it was warm in New York, and you had the humidity, and you’re sweating – and so you sit with a big jug of red wine and everybody else is drinking beer – and you’ve got a pipe and you’re smoking a little hash and you’re popping the amyl’s and you’re sweating and you’re not making any sense, but you’re having a nice time coming down. Aah, that was the life.

[Long pause] That’s when I was younger… I sure as hell wouldn’t try that now… I wouldn’t last another year…

Tell me about the actors you worked with making 8mm loops.

I was the first to shoot Linda Lovelace. Like I said, I knew her from Florida.

She and Chuck needed money so they came to New York – and they lived at my place. That’s when she did loops for me, so I could give them some money. This was long before Gerry Damiano’s film, Deep Throat (1972). Linda didn’t think that she gave that good head, but she like to be spanked [motions spanking] when we were having sex… and she was pretty good… aahh, but er… where was I….? [looks confused]

Chuck and Linda (1971), taken by Sam

Linda Lovelace.

After I shot her, I sent her to Bob Wolfe. That’s when the dog thing happened. That was all Bob Wolfe’s thing.

What did you know about that?

I don’t know anything about the dog loop. The was Bob’s game. I don’t know about it, except that it happened. I never shot loops with dogs. I never did kiddie porn and I never did gay things because that isn’t in me. I mean, I did lesbian and some other stuff like that, but gay things… no. Whenever someone asked me to do any of that, I passed it to other guys.

Bob Wolfe was another New York loop maker, and as such he must have been a rival. Did your paths cross often?

Wolfe was a hell of a nice guy – just a little weird sometimes.

He and I were ahead of everybody else in this business. It was pretty much just us making loops in New York. If you see a loop from then, it was mine or Bob’s. We didn’t collaborate – it’s just that we had a kind of lock on the industry. We were friends but we were competitors.

We were making so much money [takes a long drink]. Those were the days of wine, women, and… [long pause] whatever else is good.

Who else did you work with?

Almost everyone started with me. Rob [Everett, also known as Eric Edwards], Jamie [Gillis]. Jamie Gillis was always the greatest. Fred [Lincoln] was an assistant of mine who fucked on camera as well. Guys like that. but most people came in just once, and I never saw them again. Tallie [Cochrane] worked for me for a while.

Oh, there’s another guy – I don’t know whatever happened to him if he’s still around – I was in his book too… what was his name? Oh, Marc Stevens! Marc’s mother got him in the business. She said, “Why should you have all the fun?!” She was even older than me then, but I got it on with her… ahh, happy days.

Linda Lovelace and Eric Edwards, taken by Sam

Where did you find the people to appear in the loops?

I did a lot of photographs for things like hairstyle magazines so I knew a lot of beautiful girls. Some of them did photo sets or sex loops for me, and some didn’t want to, but I always had a bunch of beautiful girls working with me.

There was this one girl that I used a lot in the loops. I don’t remember her name any more. Every time I wanted to film her, I used to ask her, ‘Who do you want to work with this time?” And every time, she said, ‘Oh Charlie, please!’

So I’d call up Charlie and he came over and they’d work together. Charlie was secretly in love with this girl, but he spent all his money on the whores on 8th Avenue. In fact, he used to get an advance on his pay so that he could go out and get laid before he came in and did the jobs for me.

So this one time, they were both there and he’d just done a double ending – meaning, he’d come twice – and they were putting their clothes on, and he finally asked her, “Why don’t we go out and have a couple of drinks?’

She said, “No way, Charlie, I like ya but you’re just not my type.” [laughs]

Where did you shoot the loops?

Mostly in my apartment on 8th Avenue.

I’ve interviewed a number of people who remember you had a lot of cats, and your place wasn’t always clean and tidy.

Well, that may be true (laughs). It all added to the atmosphere, you know. I like dirty (laughs).

We were pretty free and easy there, half the time I was in the nude when I was shooting and we were playing around. I sure did a lot of performing but not on film [takes a drink].

Did you ever have any crew helping you make the loops?

Herb Fogelson was the only assistant I ever used. He did the dark room work. I remember one of the girls walked in once saying, “Man, I’m as horny as hell. I gotta get fucked’. And Herb said “I’m available!” She said “Herbie? If you were the last man on earth, I’d become a lesbian’ [laughs and drinks].

Most of the time, it was just me. I just did ‘em myself, set up the lights and shot ‘em myself. We weren’t so sophisticated then – it was just damsels fucking and sucking.

Tell me about how you would light a sex scene for a loop.

We didn’t use the fancy lights. I just clipped one on the door, put one in the kitchen, one was over on a light stand – that was the three lights I had. It wasn’t sophisticated, it was all black and white, it was just a chance to see a little humping and jumping, a little fucking and sucking – that was it!

Given that these loops were not legal due to the explicit sex, did you ever busted?

I was only arrested in New York for pot, and of course it was an illegal search and seizure. What happened was some girl got arrested for heroin, and her and I had a difference. She said I was her supplier, so they raided me and found a couple of ounces of pot in my place – but the search warrant was for heroin, so it was thrown out for illegal search and seizure. They’re allowed to find it but they can’t prosecute you on it.

Were you ever worried about the legality of it all?

The biggest problem was underage girls because you’d get a lot of runaways who came to the city. So I had to be careful about that. I remember these twins came in and I didn’t know how old they were. I said, “Do you have ID?” They showed me their ID which showed they were 19 years old, but then I noticed they had different pictures – but the IDs were identical! I found out later they were 16 years old – and they were using a cousin’s ID which they’d got from Idaho.

Another time, I had this young girl come over and offer me sex. I said I can’t do this without ID, and she showed me some phony ID that said that she was 18 and then… [sighs] I found out she was a 14-year-old girl [picks up his drink].

Tell me about your lifestyle in those days.

It was the good life. I closed the bars at 4 o’clock in the morning. I got up around noon with a hangover, I went to work in the afternoon. I lived good. I was invited to all the parties because I knew girls and they would always come with me. Every time I went to a party, I had four or five girls with me.

Were these sex parties?

Some were, but most were just regular New York soirees.

There was a guy named Russell – I forget what his last name was. He was a writer. Everybody else would get $200 – $300 for these little pocket books that they used to do, but Russell was getting $500 – $600. Now Russell was weird: he had a wife, ex-wife, and step-daughters… they all used to hang out with him. I would go there with John and Linda Sanderson [Jason and Tina Russell] and a bunch of other people. He’d have us set up scenes that he was going write about in his books, and we’d have parties and act out the scenes for him. Like, Linda was the nun and I was the kid she’s teaching. Then the nun pulls her dress up… and he wanted all these things re-enacted! He’d sit around all the time just stroking himself [gesticulates].

What do you remember about the Times Square area at the beginning of the 1970s?

That was my world. I was happy there.

But then loops started getting tired and old. So someone figured, they were going to go one better than loops – and they started live shows! The master of ceremonies for the live shows was Hal Stone.

What was a typical live show like?

Just like a loop. Bob Wolfe got into that business as well. They even used the same actors.

They wouldn’t do the come shot – but the stage was lit, the girl would get the guy a hard on, and there’d be some penetration [acts out thrusting]. The audience was these guys who were all sitting around, busy getting it on with their thumb and five fingers… [giggles while demonstrating].

I left New York around that time.

*

Next time: Sam takes his talents west.