L.A. Stories: My Life with Traci Lords – A Conversation with Stewart Dell, Part 2

Stewart Dell’s life in the Los Angeles XXX film business would have been interesting if it had ended in the early 1980s – after an itinerant career that had seen him start as an underage crew member on his father’s sex movies, relationships with various porn starlets, a marriage to Linda Wong, and more film work on tens of adult and low-budget movies.

But remarkably, the most striking aspect of his life was still ahead of him: in 1985, he met adult film star Traci Lords, and together they made three XXX films – despite Traci being underage in two of them. In July 1986, they were busted by the FBI.

What happened? How much did Stewart know about Traci being underage? And who alerted the FBI to Traci?

Over the years, both Stewart and Traci have told their side of the stories: Traci’s account appeared in her autobiography ‘Underneath It All’, published in 2003, and Stewart wrote two accounts (which differed from each other) – one unpublished, the other published in 2023 – each called ‘Lolita Logic.’

The trouble is that these versions of the story differ in material ways. And they are also demonstrably false in many respects. So what really happened?

While the exact nature of the events may never be known, The Rialto Report spoke with Stewart after the publication of his book to ask him about his memories of the time and the ways his story differs from Traci’s.

Content advisory: this interview contains references to child pornography.

You can read the first part of The Rialto Report conversation with Stewart Dell here.

Stewart Dell, 1984

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In February 1984, Nora Kuzma, aged 15, answered a newspaper advertisement for Jim South‘s World Modeling Talent Agency, and, using forged identity documents, entered the sex industry.

Over the next months, she worked as a nude model, appearing in magazines such as Velvet, Juggs, and Club, and in Penthouse’s September 1984 15th-anniversary issue – where she chose the stage name Traci Lords, after the actor Jack Lord from the television series, ‘Hawaii Five-O.’

In October 1984, she made the first of many porn movies when she appeared in What Gets Me Hot!, going on to become one of the most popular and successful adult film actresses of the 1980s.

*

6.     Meeting Traci Lords

Let’s start with how you first met Traci. Can you tell me about that?

It was October 1985, and I was running my film business, Oceans International, on the first floor of an office building on Holloway Drive.

I got a call from a friend who said he wanted to meet. He was a Japanese businessman that I’d bought three Japanese language low budget features from. I hadn’t paid him – cash flow was always an issue for me – and so I figured he wanted his money.

This is the person you refer to as Reku or Riku Nakamura in your two accounts?

Yes.

What did he want?

He wanted my help to produce a promotional Japanese tourism video for English speaking tourists – called ‘Travel Tokyo.’ The U.S. government required him to hire an American producer and an American co-hostess for it.

That seems an unusual requirement.

I think he was getting a U.S. grant or something – and that was part of the deal.

What was your role in it?

I agreed to produce it – which meant I needed to find an English-speaking presenter. I held a non-union casting call over a weekend and filmed tens of auditions with a cameraman friend. No one caught my eye.

At the end of the first day, when I was packing up, I got a call from Hal Guthu.

The agent from the porn scene in the early 1970s?

Right. He was still working as an agent in the same Melrose Avenue studio as when I’d first met him, maybe 15 years earlier.

You changed his name to ‘Hal Gates’ in your book. Why was that?

To protect him. I didn’t want to implicate him in this affair.

Even though Hal died in 2000?

(laughs) Sure, he’s not a major character in the story.

Why did Hal call you that day?

He said he was sending over a girl I should consider for the tourism video. Her name was Kristy Elizabeth.

And you agreed to stay back and meet her?

Yeah, sure… I hadn’t seen anyone that I liked.

What were your first impressions of Kristy?

She was beautiful. The most beautiful girl who’d auditioned. By far. Wholesome and sexy, and by far the best. She was dressed in a sweater dress showing off cleavage and shoulders.

Traci

What credentials did she have?

She had the usual modeling zed card with a resume stapled to the back, but no headshot. She said it was because she was just getting started. Her resumé listed a drama course at El Camino and a few rock videos, but there wasn’t much else on it.

Did it say how old she was?

No – but looking at her, I figured she was about 22. When she talked, she sounded younger: maybe 19 or 20.

How old were you?

31.

What was her manner like?

Confident, assertive. Flirty too. Always aware of her surroundings. I sensed she could manipulate people easily. But I liked her. She had a presence.

And you didn’t recognize her as being Traci Lords?

How could I? I wasn’t even aware of who Traci Lords was. I hadn’t been in the sex film business for many years.

But you’d been on the crew of adult films made in Los Angeles with Kim Christy [Sulka’s Wedding (1983), Corrupt Desires (1983), Sulka’s Daughter (1984)] just a year or so before.

Well, those weren’t really mainstream sex films.

They did star mainstream performers like Colleen Brennan, Tom Byron, Lisa De Leeuw, Eric Edwards, Ron Jeremy…

(laughs) Yes – true, but they were essentially films about a transsexual. Like I say, I didn’t know who Traci Lords was.

Let’s switch over to Traci’s account of your first meeting for a moment. She describes how she was at a low ebb and had just signed with a (nameless) agent who could get her jobs outside of porn. This agent set up an audition for her with you – which she said was for a softcore sex film that you were making.

Not true… because I had no intention of ever making films. I was a distributor.

But just the previous year, in 1984, you had directed a porn film: Girls Just Want to… Have Fun! that starred Paul Thomas and Crystal Breeze. You used the name ‘Stephen Cartier.’ You don’t mention this movie in your accounts.

(silence) Yup, you got me. I’d forgotten about that one. That was Kenny Gibb who put that one together. As you know, Kenny and I went way back to around 1970/71 when he taught Uncle Frank and I how to use a camera. We worked together so often over the years and I probably felt I owed him one when he asked me to do it.

It was just a quick one, all over in a few days. It was a one-off.

But the point I’m making is that if you were involved in making adult films at that time, you must have heard of Traci – she was the biggest star in that world.

No, she hadn’t featured on my radar.

So, to recap: Traci said you wanted to hire her for a softcore sex film, and you insist it was for a Japanese tourist film. Among other things she said in her book was that you were that you were pushy, flirty, and manipulative, she reckoned you were about 35, you “reeked of cigarettes”, and she referred to you as ‘Scott Bell.’

Like I say, she’s deliberately misremembering. And misleading. I remember her saying I looked young at the time!

What happened next?

After she auditioned, I took her over to Mirabel’s restaurant, which was over the road from my office, and we talked a lot that evening.

What did you talk about?

She told me she was from Redondo Beach and was going back to college next semester to read drama. She ran track and did drama club in high school, loved to dance, surf, and roller skate, had three sisters, and considered herself boring. She mentioned an over-protective, engineer father, and a mother who was nuts. She said she loved Lauren Bacall, Jack Lord from Hawaii 5-0, cats, and hated beer.

She lived with a jealous, abusive boyfriend, Tom, who would hardly let her out of his sight. She’d been with him for a year, and he controlled her. They’d sometimes play a nightclub game, where Traci would feign interest in a guy and then Tom would pick a fight with him in the parking lot.

She asked me a lot of questions too. I noticed she was sizing me up – and everybody else in the room individually. But I also saw that her pupils were dilated like she was on coke or uppers. I’d done those drugs for years so I could read the signs.

So you had no suspicions about who she really was?

No. When she ordered alcohol, she was asked for her ID. I saw it and it read: ‘Kirsty Elizabeth Nussman,’ born 11/17/72 – according to that, she was about to turn 23.

There was a weird moment when a group of rockers came over and asked if she was Traci Lords. She brushed it off saying that it happened all the time. She said it made her mad because she hated porn.

Did the fact that she was recognized strike you as strange?

The name ‘Traci Lords’ rang a bell, I guess, but I ignored it.

You said she was flirting with you?

Big time. When she’d had several drinks, she talked about her childhood and family in Redondo Beach, how she enjoyed turning men on along the Hermosa Strand, and that she’d be famous one day.

Then she asked me if there was a casting couch as part of the selection process for the tourism video… we went back to the office and had sex.

In Traci’s book, she tells a very different story: she writes that she stormed out of your audition when she became suspicious of your intentions, and went straight to see her agent to complain. When she got there, the agent told her you’d already called him because you’d recognized her as Traci Lords, and that you wanted to meet her at Mirabel’s to discuss a business proposition.

No, I had no idea who she was until much later. I didn’t recognize her at all. Her version is not correct.

What was the business idea that she said I wanted to discuss?

She said that you had an investor who would bankroll a new film production company with her: you suggested it should be called TLC, the Traci Lords Company. Your idea was to direct three films with her.

The TLC venture came much later, and it was her idea.

Let’s go back to your account. What happened after your first meeting with Traci?

She called up the next day, complaining about her boyfriend. She said he took all of her money so she was broke. She said she wanted to leave him but that he controlled her.

In what way did she say that he controlled her?

She was mysterious about that. She said he was blackmailing her. It was at that stage, I figured that she must be Traci Lords.

I confronted her, and she broke down and admitted it. She said she was trying to leave the XXX business.

But you still didn’t realize that Traci was underage at that stage? Which was presumably the reason that her boyfriend was able to blackmail her…

Correct. I just thought he was blackmailing her because she was trying to make it as a regular actress and was trying to hide her porn activity. I figured he used that secret to control her.

Did you see her again soon after your initial meeting?

Yes, she came into my office in the next few days. She looked different this time, casual clothes – I think a Metallica t-shirt, no make-up, and she looked younger.

How did she seem this time?

Afraid. She was crying. And she was definitely on some drug too. Her eyes were dilated again.

She said she wanted to get away from this boyfriend, so I offered her a place to stay with me.

Meanwhile, you said that Traci had been your choice for the Tokyo tourism video: how do you proceed with that?

Turns out that when Reku saw the videotape audition that I sent him, he immediately recognized her as Traci Lords, the porn star. He said he’d met her at the AVN convention in Vegas the previous year. He said he’d tried to convince her to do a porn film in Japan, but she refused because her jealous boyfriend wouldn’t let her go.

What did Reku suggest?

(laughs) He lost interest in the tourism video, and said he wanted to finance a porn film in Japan with Traci.

What happened when you told Traci that you knew her real identity?

She became emotional, broke down, and admitted she was Nora Kuzma from Ohio not Redondo. She said her father had been abusive to her mother and they escaped by moving to California. She said that her abusive boyfriend took her to her first porn audition when she was 19 and kept her in the business for the money. It was a mix of half-truths and lies, but I started to have feelings for her.

She insisted she would’ve told me but we were having such a good time.

But she didn’t reveal her real age?

No.

*

7.     Traci Takes Tokyo

How did Traci react to the idea of making a film for Reku?

She was angry at first. She wanted to get out of business but she was a victim of her own success – simply because people recognized her and wanted her to make more adult films.

But she was flat broke after leaving her boyfriend, and so she relented.

How so?

She snapped into a different persona: the Traci-the-business-woman mode. And when she was like that, she was formidable. Smart, sassy, intelligent. Very good negotiator, and she seemed to like that side of the business. She went through all the details of her demands – sole ownership for all distribution rights in the U.S., $2k for 2 days’ work, the number of scenes – one girl/girl, one blow job, one solo, but no boy/girl scene – travel arrangements for us both, payment details… the works. The movie would be called Traci Takes Tokyo.

She always saw things from a business perspective. I remember we saw a CNN report on the Meese Commission on Pornography. It freaked me out, but Traci said the publicity would sell more tapes. That was Traci. So smart like that.

And this is when TLC was established?

Yes. But that was completely Traci’s idea. She asked me to be her partner, 51%/49% in her favor. Originally, she wanted to call it Cat Eats Mouse Entertainment, which were our pet names for each other.

She was laser-focused on the longer term and spoke about her plan: enroll in acting classes, get out of XXX, find parts in straight films, and become successful within a few years. She was ambitious, focused, and completely single-minded about making it in the entertainment business.

What was your response to the idea of the Tokyo film?

I was reluctant to be involved in porn yet again, but – like I say – she was persuasive and wouldn’t give up. She said we could distribute it through my Oceans company. She said she needed my expertise in distribution. I told her I didn’t want to distribute porn, and I suggested an outright sale for around $20k.

Returning to Traci’s version: she said that your plan from the start was to make three films with her.

No. I didn’t even want to do the Japanese movie, but I was torn between helping her and keeping my own business afloat. We both agreed this would be her last sex film.

How had your relationship with Traci progressed to this point?

I mean… we were in pretty deep. We’d fallen for each other. We flew out to Puerto Vallarta for a couple of weeks’ vacation. We had amazing sex, both tender and rough – she called me ‘Cat’ on account of how I gave her oral sex – and I really liked her.

One day, we got drunk, and convinced a priest to marry us while we were in Mexico. I hardly remember anything about it but I found a marriage certificate in my pocket the next day: we never mentioned it again.

Did she give you any insight into why she’d got into making sex films?

A little. She said she’d been abused. We could relate to each other on that. She said that porn was her way of reclaiming her power. Besides she liked showing off her body – and felt she could do it better than the others in the business. She also admitted she lied to herself every time she did a sex scene by telling herself it was all just another acting challenge – but she felt scummy afterwards.

She told me she had taken Hal Guthu as an agent recently as a way of leaving porn, though she found it was ironic that now she was in it deeper than before.

Traci hardly mentions the Tokyo trip and the film, ‘Traci Takes Tokyo,’ in her book. How do you remember it?

It was an ordeal – for many reasons.

On the positive side, the Japanese guys took care of us: we flew first class and stayed in the Park Hyatt Hotel in Shinjuku-Ku.

The problems started when we shot the sex scenes. A famous Japanese porno director, Tadashi Yoyogi, was hired to direct as he was a big deal in the Japanese market – but he spoke no English. So Traci suggested that I become the co-director… which was a bad idea.

How so?

Well, it felt strange being on set telling the actors how to have sex with my girlfriend… They didn’t understand English and they couldn’t perform, so we called up Don Fernando and got him to be the stunt cock for nearly all of them.

It came to a head one day when Traci and I were both high on speed, and she lost her temper – and started shouting at everyone. We had a fight because she felt I wasn’t being assertive enough for her. She told me to go back to the hotel and not come back, and she took charge of the production after that.

What did that entail?

She told everyone what to do – effectively directing it. She demanded that some of the scenes were re-shot.

How did the conflict resolve between the two of you?

Traci told me she didn’t think I was strong enough to be around when she shot her scenes and she didn’t want my negative energy on set, so we agreed we would work separately – I would focus solely on the business side.

After the sex scenes, we traveled around Tokyo and Osaka shooting b-roll for the movie, and then we went home.

Where were you living at this point in L.A.?

We moved in together and rented an apartment in the Marina Village Apartments in Marina Del Rey, an upscale complex near Venice Beach. We wanted something anonymous because she was worried about being recognized. She only went out wearing big sunglasses and a floppy hat.

How did you decide to distribute ‘Traci Takes Tokyo’?

To be honest, the film was terrible. I got an edited copy of it from Reku and it was weird: it had a scene with an endoscope camera inside Traci. It was pretty incomprehensible.

I wanted to sell it outright, get rid of it, and not handle the distribution. I contacted my network of people that I had worked with for my Oceans company, but none of them were interested in a hardcore sex film – except for Alan Roberts whose operation was too small. When I told him that, he kicked me out of his building where I ran my business.

So I made appointments with each of the big five adult companies: Caballero, CBO, Paradise, VCA, Western Visuals.

How did the meetings go?

Traci was as amazing as ever: she dressed like a business woman, and flirted and manipulated the guys effortlessly. We made a good team, but she really ran those meetings.

In the end, we were only offered $10k. This was apparently more than any offer before – we were told the largest advance up to then was $5k. But Traci was indignant – she wanted $20k – so she turned them all down even though she was getting desperate because she was running out of money. That caused us to fight.

Then I got a call from Perry.

A call from Perry is never good news…

(laughs) Right? I hadn’t spoken to him since he stole money from the skate business. Maybe five years before.

He was calling because Ivan Markota [the acting coach who had produced early sex films directed by Perry Dell] told him that I was shopping a new Traci Lords film around.

What did Perry want?

He said he had a distributor for the film: a newcomer to the business named Seymour ‘Sy’ Adelman. Sy was a wealthy precious metals futures dealer from Michigan who was starting a porno distribution company in L.A., and he figured this film would be a perfect way to announce his arrival.

Perry set up a meeting for Traci and I to meet with Sy at La Dome on Sunset.

What were your impressions of Sal?

Big, loud, brash, arrogant. He went everywhere with a bodyguard-type character. He boasted he’d just moved into a million-dollar apartment on Doheny in the same building as Diane Keaton.

What did Traci think?

Traci hated him. (laughs). Within five minutes of meeting him, she went straight to the rest room and did some coke.

What was Sy’s business model?

He told us he was buying a small video distribution company from a woman named Honi Weber who had video stores across the country. She was a low-end, one-stop shop, distribution person who sold everyone’s films. It was called something like Vantage Home Media or Vantage Entertainment. His idea was to take it public, then buy a major adult video company with the proceeds, then start distributing mainstream titles by acquiring and building a library. It would be an industry leader in 5-7 years.

Sy said he wanted to start by making a splash with original content that would capture people’s imaginations.

So Sy was serious about distributing ‘Traci Takes Tokyo’?

Yes. He had the money and he knew it would set him up.

We offered it to him for $20k. I said it was a higher price than usual because it was Traci’s last movie. It was guaranteed to be a big hit.

Sy countered with $15k… as long as we signed up for one more X-rated movie with him, for which we would receive another $15k.

How did Traci react?

She hit the roof again. She wanted to get out of the business. She refused to even discuss making another movie.

How did you handle the situation?

I took Traci’s side of course. I told Sy that Traci was going to do the CES show in Vegas. That would be huge publicity for the Tokyo movie. Sy would be able to take advantage of the news that this was to be Traci’s last ever film. It would be the biggest tape of the year.

Sy didn’t bite?

He wouldn’t back down. He said he needed more than just the one Traci XXX movie to make an impact.

He made a final offer: $20k, plus 10,000 shares in his new company stock, six personal appearances, and he added a royalty of $2 per tape for every tape sale after the first 10,000 units. And he offered us both Mercedes cars that he had in his garage. But he insisted that a second porn movie was non-negotiable for him.

And Traci wavered at that point.

Yes. Mainly because she needed the money – we’d spent a lot on the apartment and new clothes… She was angry because she couldn’t say no.

So Sy took ‘Traci Takes Tokyo’ and we had to make another video…

*

8.     One More Film

What was the budget for the new film for Sal?

$5k… until I forced him up to $7k.

Which still doesn’t sound like very much…

It wasn’t! (laughs) It meant we had to write it ourselves, and then I had to direct it and do all the post production too.

And directing it was going to cause a problem, because Traci had no confidence in my ability to direct her in a sex scene after Tokyo…

How did the pre-production go?

We did a lot of coke, and came up with the title, Beverly Hills Copulator, and then wrote the script around that concept. It was dumb, but we weren’t trying to make an epic…

We went over to World Modeling to get the actors from Jim South. Ron Jeremy was there, and Traci whispered she didn’t want him. Oh, and she said she didn’t want to work with any African American men either. She looked embarrassed, and just said that her father was a racist.

Did Sy have any requirements about the new film that he wanted from you?

Not really. He left us alone to make it ourselves – but when we sent him the Tokyo film, he called us over to the office of his new company that he shared with Honi, out in an industrial strip mall in Van Nuys. He was angry.

What was the problem?

He and Honi hated it. They complained about that it was too short, too many Asians, and too un-erotic. And they complained about the endoscope camera. I couldn’t disagree with them on that last point (laughs).

In short, they wanted us to shoot another scene for it.

What was Traci’s reaction to that suggestion?

I didn’t tell her… I figured I could shoot an additional scene as part of ‘Beverly Hills Copulator’ and send Sy that.

How did production go for ‘Beverly Hills Copulator’?

It was ok… given that neither of us wanted to be there.

We shot most of it in a beautiful mansion that I’d scored from a friend of Ivan at the acting school. It was in the Mt. Olympus neighborhood of the Hollywood Hills.

How was it directing the sex scenes with Traci this time?

Still difficult.

How so?

Well… she only seemed to have one speed setting for having sex – which was furious and hard. When I told her that a scene called for a more romantic approach, she didn’t take it kindly. In fact, we ended up shooting those scenes in a softcore fashion because she had difficulty doing them in a more gentle manner.

It wasn’t helped by the fact that she was taking cocaine to get through it all. Or ‘method acting’ as she referred to it (laughs). She would disappear with her co-star Kristara (Barrington) and do tequila shots.

Were Sy and Honi happier with your film this time?

They didn’t complain. And we did the CES in their booth which was covered in posters for ‘Traci Does Tokyo’ and ‘Beverly Hills Copulator’ for their new company. Traci signed autographs day and night, she won an AVN award, and everyone seemed happy.

I felt like a pimp… but that was nothing compared to what happened next.

What happened?

Two pieces of information.

First, an editor told me that Sy had been busted in Florida on a major rap. A precious metals fraud scheme. I can’t remember the details but it was serious, and this guy warned me that Sy was dangerous. Of course, this made me worried we wouldn’t get paid so I went to Sy and asked him for the $20k for the Tokyo film – which he still hadn’t paid to us. Also, I found that Sy had shipped 20,000 units to one distributor, so we were due another $5k in royalties. We went to his office and he gave us a part-payment.

I was still worried about getting the rest… and the $20k for ‘Beverly Hills Copulator.’

What was the other news that you received?

Er… I got an anonymous phone call telling me that Traci was only 17.

Did you believe the caller?

Yes… Deep down, a lot of things made more sense knowing that.

Who did you think the caller was?

To this day, I don’t know. A male voice. Hung up straight away.

How did you react to that news?

I freaked. I went back to the apartment and went through Traci’s stuff. I found a birth certificate for a Kristy Nussman, a Redondo High School ID card, and a young pic of her dated 1983.

*

9.     The Last Film

Did you confront her with the information?

No… I panicked and didn’t know what to do. So I didn’t tell her that I knew.

To make matters worse, a French producer, Jean-Louis, approached us at CES wanting to produce another XXX film with Traci. He owned a boutique video distribution company in Paris which handled a catalog of hardcore and softcore films

What was he offering?

He said he’d do everything, would pay all production expenses, and even had the script already written: it was about a wealthy playboy producer who discovers a starlet at the Cannes Film Festival, but after flying her back to Paris, he mistreats her.

He wanted to call it, Traci, I Love You.

What did Traci think to that?

Traci was interested.

What? I thought she was keen to leave adult films behind?

I know. It was crazy because she’d been so keen to quit. But she liked Jean-Louis, and maybe the CES show had convinced her that she could make one last paycheck by postponing her departure for one more film.

And what did you think?

Having just found out about Traci’s age, I was dead against it of course. I wanted nothing to do with a porn film that featured an underage performer. Obviously. So… we had some big fights.

How did the situation resolve?

I needed the money too. I had a wife, child support, creditors to my company, a mortgage, credit cards. It was all out of control. I was broke. I relented and agreed to do it with Traci.

We went back to Jean-Louis, and she negotiated the deal. I took a back seat in the whole conversation.

She demanded script approval, sex scene partner approval, first class flights to France, a suite in Cannes, and all the U.S. rights.

One detail struck me: she paid particular attention to the exact shooting dates. Eventually I realized she was making sure that the film would be made days after her 18th birthday.

Did you tell anyone about Traci’s age?

I decided to call the FBI and tell them. And they referred me to the LAPD in San Fernando Valley.

No one called me back, so I called Perry…

What?! Perry had been a consistently bad source of advice for you since the beginning…

I know (sighs). I didn’t have anyone else to talk to who knew the business…

What did Perry say to you?

We met at Norm’s restaurant in West Hollywood – the same old meet-up spot for the ‘60s films. He was adamant: he reckoned that if I hadn’t know that Traci was underage when she made the films with me, then… I was innocent. And if I made another film after Traci’s 18th birthday, then that wouldn’t be an issue either. So he told me to keep quiet.

But…

There’s always a “but” with Perry…

He went and told Sy that we were going to make another film in France.

Which had nothing to do with Sy.

Wellll…. except for the fact that Sy said that his investment in ‘Traci Takes Tokyo’ and ‘Beverly Hills Copulator’ were based on those being Traci’s last X-rated films. He said that we were devaluing his investment by making another movie.

What did he want?

Sy insisted on being the sole distributor for the French movie. I told him we wanted to sell it to one of the big companies instead.

He said he’d withhold the $20k for ‘Beverly Hills Copulator’ he owed us unless we signed the French movie over to him. And he threatened me physically.

And all this time, you are not telling Traci that you knew her age?

Correct. She started acting classes at Ivan’s Van Mar Acting Academy but some of the students recognized her, so she left. Angry as hell.

It was then that Traci came up with the bright idea that we should get married and I should meet her family! (laughs) Talk about bad timing… I’d just found out my girlfriend had been making adult films as an underage performer, I was being stiffed by our distributor, threatened with violence, and my wife had found out I was seeing a porn star and presented me with divorce papers…

How did meeting Traci’s family go?

Weird. It was just her mother and three sisters – her father had moved out years before. There was a strange dynamic between the women that I couldn’t figure out. And when I left, her mom whispered “Help Traci” to me.

Did you propose to Traci?

I did. I bought her an engagement ring, but she said we should wait…

What do remember about the production for ‘Traci, I Love You’ in France?

The film side was stressful. The first part was shot during the Cannes Film Festival, so I turned it into a business trip for my own business. I had a booth and signed a deal for The Love Butcher (1975) – which was ironic because I’d worked on that movie with Uncle Frank back in the day.

My business wasn’t doing great though and at the back of my mind I knew I’d be doing better if I was selling adult product.

How was the filming stressful?

I stayed out of that and left it to Traci. But one night she went missing, and turned up drunk at midnight back at the Carlton Hotel where we were staying.

When she sobered up, she was distraught and admitted everything to me: she said it was her real birthday – May 7 – and told me she’d just turned 18 that day.

I said that I already knew, and told her about the anonymous phone call I’d received. She figured that was probably Tom, her abusive ex, who’d made the call to me.

What did she tell you about why she’d become this underage performer?

She was vague. She said none of it was planned, that she felt bad about having lied, and that she had no intention of telling anyone else. She said that she hadn’t told me in order to protect me from going to jail for child porn.

Did you believe she was being sincere?

I did. For a brief moment, the thoughts crossed my mind that perhaps she was colluding with the FBI, or that she had planned it all so that she would end up owning the only legal Traci Lords film, but she denied it all.

She was afraid and upset, and I believed her.

But where did this leave you personally in terms of the role you’d played in Traci’s life over the previous months?

I was scared. I can’t lie. I couldn’t sleep, and was terrified that I’d be held accountable for everything Traci had done. I only had Perry’s advice that I’d be fine because I was unaware of Traci’s age when we made two films together.

But I decided that wasn’t enough so I put in a call to an attorney back in the States… to get some real advice.

How did that go?

This guy did some digging and came back with some news: he said he’d heard a rumor that the FBI already knew about Traci and that her case may be at the center of the upcoming Meese Commission report.

What did he recommend?

Two things: firstly, that I should dissolve the TLC partnership with her. And secondly, that I should fax him a statement detailing everything that happened in my relationship with her, containing all the dates.

Did you take his advice?

To be honest, I just wanted to flee. I had a friend in Panama and considered going to live with him. But I had a son in the U.S. so that wasn’t a realistic option.

I did wind up faxing my statement to the attorney.

Were you seeing much of Traci after this while you were both still in France?

She left for Paris to shoot the next part of the movie. I went there after the Cannes Festival for the movie launch party in a Paris disco. That was something else: Traci entered – topless – being lowered from the ceiling down to the crowd below.

And then we returned to the U.S. to wait and see what happened next. We were in a state: I wrote in my book that we were co-dependent, sexually abused, sexually exploited, emotionally impaired, stunted, drugged, and materialistic.

Did you have any concerns entering U.S. again?

I didn’t know what to expect! Especially if the FBI were already onto us. When we got to LAX, I took the precaution of putting the master tapes for the French movie into one of the lockers they had at the airport.

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10.     Busted

Events moved quickly once you returned, is that right?

Yep. The first or second night back, the Feds broke the door to our apartment and entered.

They took Traci away, and they took my passport and ordered me not to leave town. I think I gave them the personal statement that I had written in France at that point.

She was released same day, and told me that the FBI wanted her to testify against the adult film business in front of a Grand Jury. She insisted she would never do that.

And course, the media had also got hold of the story.

It was everywhere. I think Jim South was arrested around the same time. The whole industry was in a panic.

Which had many unfortunate consequences.

Meaning?

The next night, Sy and his sidekick turned up at our apartment with guns. They demanded the original film elements for the French film – which they said they were going to distribute. Which, of course, I didn’t have as they were at LAX.

What did you tell them?

I was dumb. I told them they still owed me $20k for ‘Beverly Hills Copulator’ and that meant they didn’t have the right to ask me for anything.

Where did you tell them the film was?

I said that the Feds took it. They told me I had to get the film back within 24 hours.

Sy pistol-whipped me. A big cut across my forehead. Blood everywhere. Traci was zonked out on something, and slept through all the confrontation. She awoke when they left and drove me to the hospital.

On our way there, we noticed we were being followed by another car. We didn’t know if it was the cops or someone else. After that, we hid out in a friend’s house for a few days.

What was your state of mind at this point?

Terrified and suspicious of everything and everyone. But what’s that Joseph Heller quote? “Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get you.” We feared retribution from the X-rated industry, the cops, the Feds…

What happened when you came out of hiding?

I went back to our apartment to pick up fresh clothes, and there was a guy waiting for me there. He had a gun and he followed me into the apartment. He said it was him that had chased us in the car a few days earlier.

Who was he – and what did he want?

He said he worked for Reuben Sturman. I knew from Perry and Uncle Frank that Sturman was a big-time, mob-connected distributor from Cleveland since the 1970s.

He told me to get in his car and he drove me to Sturman’s mansion.

You didn’t have a choice.

I didn’t ask any questions. When I got to Sturman’s place, he was in a large office with Noel Blum, head of Caballero. I recognized Noel from the meeting we had when we were trying to sell ‘Traci Takes Tokyo.’

What was Sturman’s vibe?

He wasn’t unfriendly but he was soft-spoken in a way that expressed complete power. Like a Bond villain (laughs). He asked about my wife and son as if he knew them, and it was clear that he was warning me that he could hurt me.

Why had he taken you to his house?

He started by explaining his theory: he said that he thought I introduced Traci to the adult industry when she was 15 so that I could build her up, and then I would drop the dime when she was 18 so I would own her only legal porn film.

Of course, I freaked at this version of the story which made me the main culprit and instigator of the whole story – a child porn scheme!

You explained your version of what actually happened?

Of course!

Sturman just stared out the window listening to me, and then explained that we all had a common problem: that the Feds had been fully aware that Traci had been underage for years, but they’d let her do her thing so they could nail Sturman for kiddie porn as he was distributing many of her films. And that meant Traci was their weapon to bust Sturman…

What did Sturman want from you?

He offered two me options: the first was that I would persuade Traci not to testify against anyone in court. If I did this, Sturman would get Caballero to buy ‘Traci, I Love You’ for a generous price to us.

And the alternative?

The alternative was that the the movie would be given to Sy – free of charge, and… Sturman said he’d be concerned about the safety of me and my family.

Why did he approach you rather than Traci to make this deal?

He thought I was the one in charge. Obviously, he hadn’t met Traci… (laughs)

He said he’d keep us under watch over the next weeks. Oh, and he insisted that this meeting with him never happened.

Sturman gave me the number for his attorney, John Weston, who in turn recommended a lawyer, Leslie Abramson, for Traci. Leslie was the one who, a few years later, was the defense attorney for the Menendez brothers.

Did you tell Traci about the Sturman meeting?

I didn’t tell anyone. I just encouraged her not to testify because I was concerned about the consequences…

What was Traci’s reaction to that?

She agreed. She said that the story she would tell was that she was taking so many drugs and drink that she couldn’t remember anyone. That was a relief to me.

So you’re no longer actively marketing ‘Traci, I Love You’ looking for a buyer, I take it?

Right. In any case, Leslie told us to bury it in the short term because it wouldn’t look good if Traci was seen to trying to sell it.

How are you and Traci getting along through all this?

Up and down. Real volatile. Although she did suggest we elope to Vegas at one point in the midst of meetings with the attorneys. I wasn’t sure if there was a legal play she was trying to do… I was just too exhausted to figure it out (laughs).

And then two things happened: Traci was served with a subpoena to testify before a Grand Jury. And I was told that I was no longer a person of interest.

How did Traci’s Grand Jury testimony go?

That’s where everything started to change.

In what way?

I think it all began when the prosecution built their case around Traci being the innocent victim – and that the evil adult industry were the bad guys. That seemed to sway her: after that in her mind, it was all about the FBI having saved her life and the XXX business being evil incarnate.

How did she testify?

She said she didn’t testify against the business – even though she now insisted it was all the industry’s fault.

But presumably that satisfied Sturman.

I guess so. We got a call from Caballero saying they were ready to make an offer for ‘Traci, I Love You.’ And Traci was very excited about making a deal.

Even though she was repudiating the world of adult film at the same time?

Sure. We discussed how to get as much money as possible.

What was the offer from Caballero?

$50k. Traci countered with $500k because of all the publicity.

Caballero came back with $100k, I think. We accepted it.

Did they ask you to do any publicity for it?

No way. They didn’t want to push Traci any more. They feared what she could do to them.

The only thing Traci did were photos for Caballero for the box cover. They hired an old pornographer for those, Sam Menning. He’d been around forever and I remembered him from the early 1970s. He did the photos for many of Traci’s posters and box covers.

Meanwhile what happened with the Federal case that was brought?

It fell apart because everyone who’d hired Traci had relied on a federal document for her ID, and, as they issued federal documents, they couldn’t prosecute anyone.

So what were the next steps to resume your lives?

Traci was hellbent on a legit acting career, so she did some more acting classes and got headshots. We made a couple of videos together – an exercise video we shot in one day, Jazzercise, because she’d become obsessive about keeping fit, and then something silly called Foxy Boxing.

She also got a starring role in a Roger Corman movie, Not Of This Earth (1988). She kept her name as Traci Lords though…

What did you make of her public statements after that?

Confused and surprised. It was like she created a different public persona, invited on chat shows to talk about being a victim, supporting a charity for runaway children, and so on.

I wasn’t the biggest fan of the X-rated world, but even I could see that she was hurting a lot of people’s livelihoods with her statements. She had no concern for them.

How about you? What were you up to?

I needed to sort my life out. We spent the $100k movie sale money within 6 months, and so I was broke again.

Plus it was all affecting my health.

Mental or physical?

Both. My drug use had escalated, so I check into a rehab program in Santa Monica with Sam Menning, who also need a detox.

Was that successful?

Welllll, at the same time I became seriously ill. I’d had kidney issues all my life and only had one kidney. This time I had renal failure and needed immediate surgery. Of course, I didn’t have insurance so that almost bankrupted me.

Was Traci there for you?

We were still together, but we were on the final downward slide.

I got it into my head that the only way I could pay my medical bills was to get the engagement ring back from her but she stopped returning my calls. She was in Baltimore shooting Cry Baby (1990) with John Waters at the time – so I flew out to confront her.

How did that go?

Not great. She was completely cold and distant with me. I went to her hotel room to reason with her but there was a guy in her bed. I think that was Brook – who she later married. We clashed, Traci came in and was angry.

The last I remember was her shouting at me, saying I was only interested in underaged girls.

I never saw her again after that

*

Epilogue

How have you felt about Traci’s film career over the years?

A whole raft of emotions… amazed, impressed, surprised, let down. I tell everyone the same thing: she reinvented herself as a victim and the world embraced her anger. She re-wrote her life according to her own desire… and it worked.

You’ve never been tempted to get in touch with Traci since then?

What would I say? She’s buried the person that I loved, and become someone new. I’d just say, “Well done. You did it…”

What happened to Perry?

He was hustling until the end. Producing plays, trying to get film projects off the ground, masquerading as a guy who’d made hundreds of movies. Well… I guess he had if you count all those pornos (laughs).

He died in 2013.

What are you doing nowadays?

I live in the mountains above Boquete in Panama.

I’ve done all manner of things over the years, mainly focusing on well-being – organic food, therapy treatments, health business start-ups. I still cycle.

The internet connection here is so sketchy that it forces a certain distance from everywhere else. I like that. I had a hectic life for a long time, and it’s good to have some peace now.

*

I had a few conversations with Stewart after the interview.

As he mentioned in our conversation, he had been challenged with kidney issues for most of his life which got worse in recent years.

And then, I received the following message from a close friend and neighbor:

“In March 2024, after learning that he was losing the health battle and facing a difficult demise, I believe he did what he felt was responsible: find care for his dog, make sure no one was harmed and that his life could end peacefully. He did not want to burden anyone else, so told us all that he was ‘going away.’ He left his door unlocked so that he could be found easily after the fact, and no one would be questioned as to assisting him. Being here in Panama, which has a Catholic culture, he was conscious of the strict laws and wanted to protect others.

“He thought it all out and made his exit as gracefully as possible.”

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Stewart Dell, 1954 – 2024

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