Sam Menning – 6912 Hollywood Blvd, Rene Bond, and ‘Gilmore Girls’: Part 2, The West Coast Years

In the first part of our conversation with Sam Menning, he spoke about his start in the early 1950s in New York as a black-and-white photographer for fetish S&M magazines that created stars like Bettie Page, before becoming one of the first hardcore 8mm sex loop filmmakers.

In the 1970s, Sam moved west to California where hardcore feature films were flooding theaters across the country, before being eventually replaced by the XXX video revolution in the 1980s. Sam was involved in every one of these chapters, a Zelig character who kept reappearing at every juncture.

The Rialto Report met and interviewed Sam on several occasions, often filming the conversations (we’ve included a clip from one of these interviews below).

This is the second part of the Sam Menning interview. The Los Angeles Years.

You can read the first part here.

———————————————————————————————————————————————————————–

1. Los Angeles – Photography (1972 – 1980)

When did you leave New York?

When Lenny Burtman moved his magazine operation to California, I came to Los Angeles because that’s where the money was. I’m Californian – and I love this state. It’s the greatest state in the union.

What year was that?

From 1972 to 1979, I lived in both New York and California. And I spent time in Europe too.

How did that work?

I had a studio and an apartment in New York, and a studio and an apartment here in Los Angeles.

During that time, I spent about 6 months in L.A., about 4 months in New York, and about 2 months in Europe each year.

I traveled all over shooting photographs for Burtman’s companies.

What were you doing in Europe?

Same as everywhere else. I shot stuff for Lenny Burtman – including things like, ‘Bastard’s Guides to the Fun Places in Europe’.

So Lenny Burtman was still your main employer in the 1970s – but primarily based on the west coast now?

He was always putting out new magazines so he needed a never-ending supply of photographs – and I was the main supplier.

A magazine featuring Sam’s photography from both coasts

Where was your office in Los Angeles?

6912 Hollywood Boulevard. It’s across the road from the Chinese Theater. I had a floor with a couple of rooms. It was an Eddie Nash building.

Do you spend much time with Nash?

In those days, you couldn’t move without bumping into him. He owned bars, nightclubs, restaurants… no one knew how much for sure… but you didn’t ask many questions. He was… something else.

Did you get to know him well?

[long pause] Well, I have to be careful with my words here. Eddie’s still alive you know [Note: Eddie Nash died after this interview in 2014], and he has a long memory [laughs].

Yeah, I worked for him on occasion [laughs].

Any jobs you can talk about?

Well, he owned clubs like the Seven Seas, Ali Baba’s, and The Kit Kat strip club. If he needed help, I’d sometimes get a call.

But you’re not a heavy, or someone who got involved in intimidation?

Nooo, I just helped bring girls in if he needed them, or move packages between locations, things like that.

Around that time, I did photos with John Holmes, and John would come round my office a lot: I may have introduced John to Nash in the first place.

Man, that was a bad trip. Later they were both involved in the Wonderland murders. But I don’t know nothing about that.

John Holmes

What was Nash like as a person?

[laughs] Who’s gonna see this interview? You’re gonna get me in trouble. Nash was… single-minded. He got what he wanted.

How did you find models for the photo jobs in California?

Another floor of 6912 Hollywood was occupied by Reb Sawitz and Bill Margold, who were running the Pretty Girl porn agency, so it wasn’t difficult to find broads… And I’d get Gillis to find girls too.

Jamie Gillis? How did Jamie end up in L.A.?

Well, when I first got to Los Angeles, I contacted him back in New York and told him to get his ass over, so he flew in and he lived with me for a while in 1972 or 1973. That’s why he’s in a lot of my early L.A. photo sets.

Jamie Gillis, in photos by Sam

Tell me about your relationship with Jamie.

Jamie was king. What a lot of people don’t know is that he was often a submissive in S&M shoots for me.

He bugged me about working with Kim Christy. Kim was a transsexual model, a blonde, leather queen that I’d shot in New York. So finally, I agreed: I got them together for a photo shoot. It wasn’t a sex shoot, just bondage, but Gillis ended up taking Kim back to my place and fucking her there [laughs]

How would Jamie find you the girls to use in modeling shoots?

It was easy. He’d come into my office, and I just told him what I needed that day. Then he’d hit Hollywood Blvd and bring me back exactly what I wanted. I paid him ten bucks for every girl. He liked it – he got to work with them as well.

Who were some of the models you remember?

There were so many. I was shooting all the time for Burtman.

Rene Bond. Ah, Rene was hot. Uschi Digart. Joyce Gibson. Candy Samples. Debbie McGuire: she was Richard Pryor’s old lady. Serena – I first introduced Gillis to her. Jutka, Lenny’s old lady was still modeling.

I shot whatever Lenny Burtman wanted – big boobs, black, amazons, blondes, midgets, whatever.

As for the guys, Rick Cassidy and John Holmes were reliable and I was friendly with them too.

Lenny Burtman titles, with Sam’s photographs

Tell me about your memories of Rene Bond.

She was the princess of the new generation of gals that came into my office. I’d been doing this for 20 years when I met Rene. I knew the models inside out until then!

What do you mean?

It’s like… the women until then had all been looking for something, you know? There would be one who was trying to get away from a bad home or husband, or one who wanted to become a fashion model or actress, or one who was just lost and was trying to find their way.

Then chicks like Rene came along, and she just wanted to have fun. And make as much money as she could! Rene’s mother was her manager for a while, and it seemed totally normal. But all the girls were like that. Hippies, I guess [looks far away.]

You took a lot of photos of Rene – and many were with Jutka, Lenny Burtman’s wife.

That was it! Two different generations. Side by side. But they worked well together.

Lenny obviously liked you. What was your relationship like with him?

We were close without being best friends. I’d play poker with Jamie, for example, but didn’t do that with Lenny. And make no mistake, Lenny was a kinky old dog. Into transsexuals especially. But he knew how to make money.

Going back to the office at 6912 Hollywood Blvd that was in the same building as Reb [Sawitz] and Bill [Margold]. Did you get to know them well?

Very well. We weren’t competing but we were in the same business. We were in each other’s space every day.

They were like Laurel and Hardy. Chalk and cheese. Reb was a horny ol’ bastard, so in addition to being an agent, he acted in pornos using a different name. He was a rough, biker guy but he found a groove in porn.

Bill was smart. He could write, and he was interested in culture and politics as well as sex. He was in some of the photosets I did for Lenny. He was a ham. Always wanted to be center stage. And he always thought he knew more than anyone else [grumbles].

Bill Margold with Rene Bond in a photo by Sam

Were you ever tempted to perform?

No, I promised my wife and daughter that I would stay behind the camera.

Wait! You were married during this time?!

Sure, I was a family man [laughs nervously].

How did that work?

Pretty well. I was happy. It was a casual relationship.

The L.A. XXX crowd seems to have been a small-ish, close-knit group?

Well, being in the same building as Reb and Bill meant that I knew everyone that passed through their business, and they knew my models. They’d send chicks up to me every day, and I’d be in their offices all the time.

Tell me about that office at 6912 Hollywood Blvd: it was one of the first hubs of adult film activity.

That was the center of it all. It’s where everything started. And finished. It was a small walk-up building where everyone hung out. We had a family of collaborators there. It was the stock exchange of porno [giggles].

Lenny Burtman publications, with Sam’s photos

Who did you become close to there?

Bill and I spent a lot of time with Maria [Tortuga] and Jennifer [West]. R.J. [Reynolds] too. Then there was Cyndee Summers… man, she was something… Candy Samples… Sandy Carey… Sunny Boyd… Other people came and went.

I had a long-time thing going with an older model/actress named Pat. She took my name on screen, and became Pat Manning. I think she spelt it wrong. ‘Manning’, not ‘Menning.’ We were on and off for ten, fifteen years, working together, playing together. Smart broad. I wonder where she ended up?

Your lifestyle must have changed after you moved west. How was it different?

In New York, you live like rats, all on top of each other. It’s sleazy and dirty, and I liked that. But in California, it’s warm, everything is spread out, and so you have to take your time over things.

Sometimes, the two worlds collided: Marc Stevens came out here to do a thing and we went to Elysian Fields nudist camp for New Years. This girl says to him, “I know you. You’re an actor!” So we took her back to her home in Redondo Beach to play around. It was Marc and this girl, and I started getting it on with her mother. Then her grandmother comes downstairs and says “I’m not letting this orgy go on in my house.” So Marc said to me, “I think it would be better if you take the old lady into the bedroom and settle her down” So I did, and I had sex with her as well (laughs).

The nudist camps were quite a thing in California in the early 1970s… did you go often?

They don’t like single guys in those places… but they knew me and they’d always say, ‘He’s a guest of ours so he can come whenever he wants’ (laughs). So I used to be there often.

Reb spent time in nudist camps too, and got himself into trouble for photographs of underage models taken there. Did you know much about that?

Oh, that was terrible.

What do you remember about it?

[Shakes his head] Man, that was bad news. That was Ed Leja’s fault. I warned him, but he was a stubborn SOB.

How did you know Ed Leja?

He was another photographer. There was a whole bunch of us taking pictures. Johnny Castano. Ron Vogel. I wasn’t worried about the competition because my pictures were fetish for Lenny. The rest were taking pin-up, cheese cake, nude bullshit. Ed thought he was a big shot because he shot some Playmates for Playboy in the 1960s.

I understand that Leja took photos for a magazine that he published called ‘Nudist Moppets’ – and that a number of the pictures were of Reb’s underage children.

It was for the nudism market. That was popular back then. Not sexual. It was a… lifestyle thing, you know?

But Reb and his wife were arrested for procuring, along with Ed Leja.

And Cyndee Summers too. She hid out at my house for a while until the heat passed. It was tough on all of them. It was bullshit.

In the end, it was all dropped… but for a time it was bad.

Were you involved in much film production in the 1970s?

Sure. Mainly helping people like Bill [Margold], [Peter] Balakoff and others. Bill Amerson, too. Amerson was all over everything, and he was tight with [John] Holmes.

What would you do on their films?

Whatever they needed. Whatever paid a few bucks. Production manager, lighting, camera work. I worked on so many of them.

You show up onscreen in a film called Fantasm Rides Again (1977).

That must have been a Margold thing, I was probably doing him a favor.

Do remember any titles that you worked on?

Hell, I didn’t even know the titles when I worked on them… I worked on hundreds back in the 1970s.

Let’s see. I wrote a few scripts. One was Weekend Fantasies (1980). Then there was Carnal Cuties (1979): that was one of Bill’s that we all did. That may have been his first film as a director. He was more interested in making movies – so he left Pretty Girl to Reb.

*

2. Los Angeles – Movies (1981 – 1988)

Were you still taking photographs for Lenny Burtman by the end of the 1970s?

That market was dying. No one wanted the photobooks we’d done since the 1950s. People wanted movies so I did less photography. I did a few picture reports from porno sets for film magazines, but it wasn’t the same.

How did Burtman respond to the change in the market?

He’d been making fetish films for years… so he continued making them.

He was connected to the House of Milan because of a cousin who started it, so we were making a few films for them too.

That would be movies like Taming of Kurt, Mistress Yvette, and Hot Pleasure Slave that were made in 1981? And you were involved in those?

I was his right-hand man on those.

What would you do in that capacity?

I got the talent from Reb, and then I set up the productions: the scenarios, the costumes, the crew. And I also took all the stills on the sets for Lenny’s magazines.

Jennifer West was one of the gals we used for those films.

Jennifer West, shot by Sam

Was it ever a struggle to make enough money for yourself?

[Sighs] I’ve gone through having a lot of money… and then being very poor – I’ve gone back and forth. I never needed much. I don’t have expensive tastes. There was usually someone to give me work. I did alright.

And then, in the 1980s, Lenny Burtman started making more mainstream sex films as well.

I was sorta responsible for that. Bill [Margold] started screwing around with a DJ from Chicago. She called herself Drea. Cute girl, so he sent her to me, and I did a few bondage photo sets with her. It was the same type of picture I’d been doing since 1950s (laughs). Whips, boots, the works. Bill loved it [laughs].

Drea, photographed by Sam

What was Drea like?

She was smart and had a lot of opinions. And she convinced Margold that there was a whole ‘black’ market that no one had touched. You know, African-American sex movies with black actors.

So I went to Lenny [Burtman] and got him to agree to finance three movies for them. I think we shot them all at the same time. I can’t remember the names. ‘Chocolate’ something, I guess [laughs].

That would be Chocolate Delights (1982), Chocolate Cherries (1984), and Black Jailbait (1984).

Probably. I have no idea. Drea directed them, Bill provided the acting talent, I was the production manager. I was still with Pat [Manning] so she did all the art stuff, you know – the costumes, props, locations and all that shit. She did good.

How did these movies do?

Ok, I guess. Drea was a pretty good director. She ended up getting with hitched to Bill but that didn’t last long [laughs].

But Lenny liked her – I think he liked the idea of having a woman in charge of everything and ordering everyone around! [laughs]. So he calls me up one day, and tells me he’s going to finance a whole mess of Drea films and he wants me to keep an eye on the whole kaboodle.

Bill and Drea

These movies were all made in 1984/85. Titles like Kissin Cousins (1984), Little Girls… Dirty Desires (1984), Too Young To Know (1984), Dial ‘F’ for Fantasy (1984), and Portrait of Lust (1985). What do you remember about them?

It was plenty of money for me (laughs). I also got work for Pat (Manning) on nearly all of them – as a performer or behind the scenes.

I called up Candy Samples for a few of them [Inside Candy Samples (1985) and A Taste of Candy (1985)]. I knew her from way back, ten years before, when I arrived in Los Angeles. She was old back when I first met her. God knows, she was even older when Drea filmed her. But they sold well, so Drea did a film with all older women [Older Women with Younger Boys (1985)]! That sold well. I worked on that too.

In ‘Portrait of Lust’, Traci Lords was one of the featured performers – who was underage at the time.

[Looks nervous] Don’t get me started on her [laughs].

What do you mean?

Well… we have to respect the fact that she was underage and… so she shouldn’t have been there.

That is true.

[Looks uncomfortable].

But…

[Hesitates] But that’s difficult to square with who she was… in real life.

How so?

She was in complete control. Of everything. Of everyone. So… if she is saying otherwise now, it’s… just not what I saw. That may be difficult for people to understand, but it’s the truth.

You seem annoyed.

A lot of people had their lives ruined by her. She shouldn’t have been doing porno, but… it made me mad that she turned around and said she’d been exploited.

Did Lenny have much to do with these movies? Did he come to the set, or get involved in pre-production?

Nah. He didn’t come near them. Like I say, he was private. He knew he could sell these films easily and make money. He trusted me to make sure that they wouldn’t spend too much money, and that’s all he was interested in. I was on set always, and I also did the lights or the grip work.

The only time Lenny got involved was when we went to Europe to shoot his movies there. Then he would book a suite and fill it with transsexual hookers for himself. In fact, he used to insist [Jamie] Gillis take the room next to the suite as Gillis would be the only one who’d understand what he was doing in there [laughs].

The work you did on the Drea films for Lenny Burtman led to more movie work for you for other people, like Bill Amerson.

Ah Billy Amtrak [laughs]. He was trying to get John Holmes back into the ol’ X business after John’s murder trial, but John was toxic: he was unreliable, he was a drug addict, he’d brought shame to the sex film industry… and he had AIDS. That’ll kill your rep [laughs]. So people didn’t want him anywhere near their movies.

To help him out, Bill comes along and makes a few films, and he makes John the production manager – and John directed them too – so that sorta helped John out.

That would be Hot Touch (1984), Intimate Couples (1984), and Looking for Love (1985).

And Bill wanted a blaze of publicity for these films! So he hired me to do photographs on set. Hundreds of them.

They were cheap flicks.

What was Holmes like at that stage?

I’d known John since he first started in porno. He was like a farm boy at first. I liked him. Then his success went to his head. Or his dick. And he became socio… pyscho…pathic… one of those things. Crazy. He had no scruples, and would rip off anyone. I stayed away from him then. He was bad news. And then he died of AIDS.

You also worked as a gaffer on Scotty Fox productions on a pretty regular basis.

He was making a new film every month for years. I did those as well.

All of these movies were a far cry from the illegal 8mm loops you shot in New York in the early 1970s that were sold under the counter – yet only a decade had passed.

You got that right. Now you had the ol’ money light, a fluff girl, sometimes a stunt cock. It was just like Hollywood going from the silent days and the old crank cameras [laughs and gesticulates cranking the camera] to where it is now.

And you were making videos with a whole new generation of stars: Christy Canyon, Bunny Bleu, Tom Byron, Tracey Adams, Nikki Charm…

I… I… Yes, these new girls were… something else [looks far away].

Lenny died in 1989. You’d been working with him since the early 1950s – and the business in which you’d both worked had changed beyond all recognition. How did his passing affect you?

[Long pause] When Lenny died… it was all over for me. I knew no one would hire me anymore. The business had changed. It was all kids and video and sunshine. Margold tried to persuade me to stay. He gave me some work [Broadcast Nudes (1988)] but I was too old to hang around.

So I stopped overnight.

*

3. Hollywood (1989 – 2010)

You were turning 65 when Lenny died, an age at which many people retire, so what did you do?

I always wanted to be an actor. I got me an agent.

What kind of acting roles did you think you could get?

I wanted whatever I could get. At first, I just got [the parts of] bums, winos, and homeless old guys. I was in ‘Life Stinks’ (1991) with Mel Brooks. Mel was good to me and said he’d find me more work. And he did [smiles happily]. I’ve worked a lot since then. I make a good living as an actor. I have a resume that any agent would want to handle. I just worked on ‘Gilmore Girls’ and I’m making over $1,000 a week. I’ve been in ‘E.R.’… ‘Scrubs’… ‘My Name Is Earl’… ‘Sabrina the Teenage Witch’… ‘Young Indiana Jones’ and a whole lot more.

How is life today?

I want to get laid once in a while again… I’d like to get the old… [gesticulates wildly with hand and index / middle finger pointing upwards]… push-push, you know?

Every once in a while, I think “Gee in the old days, I used to get laid, you know… two or three new women every week [opens arms incredulously]?! So you figure I must have… had… [concentrates on the sexual math] thousands of different women! I’ve been to bed with so many. But now I don’t want a thousand different women: I’d like to just get a little. You know when you used to get laid once or twice every day? Now its… once or twice every… year! Except for when my girlfriends stays.

You have a girlfriend?

My girlfriend… she’s… er… 20 years younger than I am.

I was 36 and she was 16 when I met her, and we’re still going together. She’s married to somebody else now, but we get together once every year. Last time I saw her we went to see Madonna down in North Carolina.

Do you have any regrets?

I wish I’d been smarter when I was told to invest in things, because I’d have had a lot more money.

[Looks thoughtful and distant] I can’t think of anything I did intentionally wrong. But unintentionally… anything that I did that hurt other people… that’s… that’s what I do not like… that’s what I regret. Otherwise, hell… live and let live, enjoy the good times and let the good times roll.

Do you look back ever and think of yourself as a pioneer?

More like an outlaw. It was a game to stay ahead of the law. I just saw myself as being cool enough that the goddam law didn’t come around and… and bust me for this and that or the other thing.

*

Sam Menning passed away in 2010. This is how our final filmed conversation with Sam ended – in an exchange with April Hall. We miss our conversations with him. 

*